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Thursday, October 24, 2013

Is Hiring Age Discrimination Ok With John Stossel (ABC Video)?

John does not believe that older workers should be protected from firing based on their age. Companies will usually deny that age was the factor in a employees firing. He infers that younger workers can do many things better than older workers. 
As a side note: "When President Barack Obama altered federal guidelines in April 2010 governing the employment of unpaid interns under the Fair Labor Standards Act,[37] Stossel criticized the guidelines, appearing in a police uniform during an appearance on the Fox News program America Live, commenting, "I’ve built my career on unpaid interns, and the interns told me it was great—I learned more from you than I did in college." Asked why he did not pay them if they were so valuable, he said he could not afford to." (source:Wikipedia) What do you think is fair? note:30 sec commercial precedes 2:30 video. Patience:). (Editor's Note)

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Anonymous said...

Maybe we shoudl eliminante all laws and discriminate by race, color, age--even bring back Slavery!

Valentino Martinez said...

John Stossel is arguing for an employer's choice to get rid of non-performing employees who happen to be older than retained employees who happen to be younger top performers. I'm 62 and happen to agree with that logic because it's based on performance and results regardless of age.

Stossel, however, needs to answer to the scenario in reverse to determine if he's for age discrimination or performance discrimination. Where do you stand John Stossel. Are you for firing non-performing younger employees and keeping top performing older employees? That is the question and the determining factor if top performing older employees are let go simply because they are considered too old.

Anonymous said...

Stossel only calls out this general drive a truck through statement. The big picture is that if you are an older worker and have many years at a company and you worked up to a higher pay scale, there is no such thing now that companies take care of long term older good workers. They want to replace them with younger lower payed people to save money, or Temps with no benefits from the company as well. Hey lets take care of "all" of the USA workers first which include older workers.

oceanflash08 said...

I am not use sure if Stossel has perhaps been desensitized as Shock reporter. Its what sells. But these are real people who have been contributors to the workplace. Perhaps he will feel differently when its personal. Like when he is 60.

Anonymous said...

Yes to performance and a BIG NO! to age discrimination. This way, everybody gets a fair treatment regardless of one's age.
A situation always seem to be easier to deal with when it concerns other people than ourselves. What people forget is that the older workers were "young" once and that those who are "young" today will eventually reach the age of today's old workers. Let's just see what they'd say when they reach there...

Anonymous said...

then Stossel should fire himself and the reason is, he earns too much and could the capital of the business...and no one is unreplaceble!

Anonymous said...

mmmmmm......What if members of congress were forced out at 50. Would it be a tougher discrimination law(s).

Anonymous said...

Did you knew the History of the Rabbit and the Turtle ? Being more performant don't means that will give you better results. Maybe in a spark of moment in time line, but the Professional that gives to a Company,profitable results for the company take a 40, 50 years path of money returns, it will be better than a Company that gives you the same money in one year. What I mean is that 1 million on one year and 0 in the next years, is not the same that a company that provides you only 500 thounsands in 50years. That Performance. Create a Company sustentability for the future of the workers and for the next generation. Young people should have also opportunities, but old mans can transfer more quickly, knowledge, that will help young people to avoid the mistakes that they have faced before them, and this combination provides a more competetive and better performance to the final goal: A More Sustentable, Efficient and Profitable Company.

stinkylady said...

2 words, "you're fired", but there are 2 more just as serious, "not hired". In positions that require logic, wisdom, companies disregard facts. In addition to experience, and continued study, "the old school" has become equally as computer savvy. Yes, we keep up and add more skills. Adaptability, diversity and knowledge adds value, and experience costs more money.
There's no excuse for people who are allowed to do this. Pathetic discrimination, such as black, female or not in the clique, are enough for me.
2 words, "you're fired", for some maybe. 2 words for you John, "jack ass", for sure. Besides, your clock is ticking too.

Anonymous said...

I have posted about this topic in several places, and sites about these issues, by the way I believe that today young workers their better well-being, both social and labor situation would not be possible without older age, in several points, work condition, technologies, etc.
Indeed of these point is a great social debt and gratitude, I guest similarly Morrow will happen with today's young people.
These kind of things happens in many countries, by the way I participated in a group in the LinkedIn network in order to make change onto law to prevent these kind of situation, and by myself I have translate to House of Congress for through a change and proposed in a draft law, at first stage I could get an answer, but I guest answer have coming back because these country it was been in election period.
My propose on draft law is focused no to protect current older workers, to stop companies to be fired because they assume older workers it becomes a problem, draft law it contemplated in case to be fired to include a program with training course to allow older people to try by their self to give a chance to get a new job o make by their self standalone business, and indemnify and social security for his family.
It seems crazy but how much get companies during older people have been working?
Any countries who can make change to these kind of social problem could be have a possibilities to get international revenues, moreover I feel could demonstrated to the ILO, where they have responsibilities and could help to countries with programs and mattering how to make draft law.
My conclusion these problem it becomes from many years ago, moreover when economic situation have been stable and profitable, today and world situation is changing aimlessly and markets doesn’t know how to managements crisis, with principal leaders without answer and long terms solutions.

Thanks

Mc GRATH Ricardo

Anonymous said...

Why would anything coming out of Fox 'noise' be deemed credible? Stossel is not exactly a champion of progressive thought. He's as narrow minded as the rest of them and would surely benefit from having his head examined.

Anonymous said...

My mother worked at a high profile college's book store for 34 years. The first 20 years as a college employee, then the school outsourced the store to a large U.S bookstore retailer. She started as a shipping clerk and worked her way up to a bookkeeper position prior to the outsourcing. After the bookstore chain acquired the contract, the regional manager started moving my mother around to lesser positions because they wanted someone younger doing the accounting, and they wanted to pay them less. Each time, the younger person hired failed to perform and my mother would get pulled back in to clean up the mess; and finally she was restored the fulltime bookkeeping position. Along comes a new regional manager, a young man, who can't understand why a senior citizen is keeping the store's books, so he starts the musical chair scenario again. By this time my mother is in her mid 70s, however her mind and health are both sharp, with the exception of arthritis in her ankles. The publicly held bookstore company begins to experience significant losses that make the news. So they start closing stores and laying people off, and when deemed necessary they adopt an age old tactic of engaging in activities they hope will cause employees to quit (and thus avoid unemployment benefit costs). The reg'l manager is aware of my mother's arthritis and he moves her out onto the floor, which requires her to stand for 8 hours a day (at 34 years, she is also the highest paid nonmanagement employee) in the hopes that she will quit. My mother loves the school and devoted most of those years to the students and home hosted international students as well, plus she needed the job. So, in spite of the daily arthritic pain from standing, she doesn't quit. The end result is that the reg'l manager gives up on his waiting game and lays her off; and offers her a modest severance package if she will sign a letter of confidentiality. He then has the gall to say the company won't fight her if she applies for unemployment benefits. He also says they will not refill the position, however they do fill it with someone much younger. This scenario gets played out all the time in our country. I tried to talk her into filing an age discrimation suit, however my mother comes from the WW II generation and their pride and dignity is something that is very rare these days. Anyone who doesn't believe that seniors deserve better than what they are getting has their head in the sand. Physically I can pass for 39 to 40 years of age, however I am in my mid 50s. You can't see a fit, youthful, energetic person on a resume and I was unemployed for 2 years, with no calls in spite of my career and accomplishments. On paper young recruiters see an older person that they do not see value in contacting. Thank goodness I was recruited by a young man whom I had mentored in the aviation security world, beginning post 9-11. Because he knows me, knows my ethics & talents; and that I take very good care of my health, I was very fortunate. His father taught him the value of a person and the value of wisdom and experience. What a shame that business colleges don't address this issue and teach kids that older people can help them learn and succeed.

Anonymous said...

We can rage against Mr. Stossel all we want - but we've only to look at company employee populations, unemployment statistics and layoff rolls to see who has been targeted for layoffs - guess what - it's not the under 40 crowd. Wrong as it might be, it's just the way it is. Corporations are using the poor economy as an excuse to 'clean house' of older workers -- they don't need 'cause' (such as non performance) or any reason to fire them - it's called a layoff - and in larger companies, it's the older workers that are being 'laid off'in droves. To keep them quiet, they're being provided with severance packages that require them to sign documents wherein they promise not to sue their former employer. People sign because they need the money more than they need their principles. You can't pay for groceries with principles.

Freddy said...

What bulldinkey Stossel knows that there is age discrimination in the USA and its rampant! Its most obvious when you apply for a job and you know you can run rings around younger salespeople and yes of course I can do anything on the internet a 20 year old can do and more!!! Yet when your 60 people just have preconceived ideas and you don't fair a chance against a 25 year old.
I thought Stossel was better than this spewing the FOX network nonsense!

Anonymous said...

No! As a human resources professional I have been discriminated against because of my age, not my ability. The workplace is cruel to older workers. Very cruel!

Anonymous said...

My mother worked at a high profile college's book store for 34 years. The first 20 years as a college employee, then the school outsourced the store to a large U.S bookstore retailer. She started as a shipping clerk and worked her way up to a bookkeeper position prior to the outsourcing. After the bookstore chain acquired the contract, the regional manager started moving my mother around to lesser positions because they wanted someone younger doing the accounting, and they wanted to pay them less. Each time, the younger person hired failed to perform and my mother would get pulled back in to clean up the mess; and finally she was restored the fulltime bookkeeping position. Along comes a new regional manager, a young man, who can't understand why a senior citizen is keeping the store's books, so he starts the musical chair scenario again. By this time my mother is in her mid 70s, however her mind and health are both sharp, with the exception of arthritis in her ankles. The publicly held bookstore company begins to experience significant losses that make the news. So they start closing stores and laying people off, and when deemed necessary they adopt an age old tactic of engaging in activities they hope will cause employees to quit (and thus avoid unemployment benefit costs). The reg'l manager is aware of my mother's arthritis and he moves her out onto the floor, which requires her to stand for 8 hours a day (at 34 years, she is also the highest paid nonmanagement employee) in the hopes that she will quit. My mother loves the school and devoted most of those years to the students and home hosted international students as well, plus she needed the job. So, in spite of the daily arthritic pain from standing, she doesn't quit. The end result is that the reg'l manager gives up on his waiting game and lays her off; and offers her a modest severance package if she will sign a letter of confidentiality. He then has the gall to say the company won't fight her if she applies for unemployment benefits. He also says they will not refill the position, however they do fill it with someone much younger. This scenario gets played out all the time in our country. I tried to talk her into filing an age discrimation suit, however my mother comes from the WW II generation and their pride and dignity is something that is very rare these days. Anyone who doesn't believe that seniors deserve better than what they are getting has their head in the sand. Physically I can pass for 39 to 40 years of age, however I am in my mid 50s. You can't see a fit, youthful, energetic person on a resume and I was unemployed for 2 years, with no calls in spite of my career and accomplishments. On paper young recruiters see an older person that they do not see value in contacting. Thank goodness I was recruited by a young man whom I had mentored in the aviation security world, beginning post 9-11. Because he knows me, knows my ethics & talents; and that I take very good care of my health, I was very fortunate. His father taught him the value of a person and the value of wisdom and experience. What a shame that business colleges don't address this issue and teach kids that older people can help them learn and succeed.

Anonymous said...

I'd venture to say that most of the currently employed are above the age of 45. John Stossel appears to be an advocate for the employer/business owners and not an objective unbias journalist.

Anonymous said...

Just another symptom of a society that's lost its moral compass. The employer/employee relationship (the long-term ones anyway) was nearly as significant as marriage...perhaps more so if day to day time spent was the only metric. Now, society prefers causal relationships rather than commitment. What's lost? Security (do you feel more secure in society now than you did 30 years ago?) That's also just one metric of how quality suffers for the sake of the share price

Anonymous said...

Wow, will Stossel repeat the same words after he gets fired? (an hopefully has no money in his bank and gets charged overdraft fees)? These people dont realize they are being used as tools by the corporations and can de pisposed of as easily as older workers.

Anonymous said...

John Stossel is just selling commercials, creating controversy so people will watch his show. He could be "reorganized" or "laid off" or "redundant" one of these days. He won't know what it is like until it happens to him, and it will. He will then get the same responses in interviews we have been getting, and develop some understanding.

Anonymous said...

Hopefully John will soon drop off of the right side of the cliff. Here is a simple question and lets see if he can answer: He is in the ER and told that he is having a severe heart attach and needs immediate life saving surgery. Which whould he prefer; the 34 year old surgeon who says "don't worry, I've done this at least ten times without any problems. OR.... the 57 year old surgeon who smiles and assures him that he has done the same procedure over 600 times with no problems or bad outcomes. Experience and knowledge gained from life can not be replaced by an enthuastic 34 year old. If your life, company, or country depends on good decisions based upon knowledge and experience then then why ask for failure.

Anonymous said...

What's curious here is that so many commenters seem to have more animus for Stossel than for the large number of employers who engage in age discrimination.

Where Stossel fails in this case is assuming that there is more than an ounce of intelligence and morality in the Human Resources world. There's not.

Anonymous said...

While I absolutely agree that ANY employee evaluation should be based on performance and that discrimination based on age is WRONG, it also must be said that there is a misconception that older employees...people who have been with a company for many years...are "good workers". Often times they are not!

I can't speak to the rest of the world but it's been my observation that here in the US and particularly in some specialized fields that very often older workers become VERY complacent, set in their ways, are unopen to change or new ideas and frequently do ONLY the minimum required to get by (compared with a younger person who may be quite eager to prove themselves). They've been doing their job for so long that they've become narrow minded and...well...just plain lazy.

Of course many companies (or hiring managers) want the most they can get out of an employee for as little pay as possible. It's not a matter of right or wrong, that's simply the way things are. As a small business owner, if "John" is 20 years old and willing to do twice the work of "Bob" who's 40, and John is willing to do it for half the pay (maybe John and his young bride just had their first kid and NEED the money), then you bet I'm going to hire John, regardless of Bob's "experience".

We Americans have BS'd ourselves into believing that we have some sort of god-given right to a good job with full benefits and that as a general rule, we shouldn't have to work too hard for it (consider current issues with American workers in the agricultural industry right now...Americans do NOT like to work hard). However, many companies these days are simply unwilling to pay an employee $20 to $30 an hour (or more) to sit on their dead butts for 6 hours out of an 8 hour shift, regardless of experience or their time with the company.

Very simply, American workers need to re-think their values. As recent economy conditions have proven with many people layed off or out of work, people are NOT entitled to a job (or benefits) just because they think they should be. If America is going to compete in this global economy...which is NOT going away...then people need to learn that they have to work for their daily bread and that it's just not the 1950's any more. Welcome to the new world.....

Anonymous said...

So many posters on this thread miss the point. If interns are worth paying, and businesses would lose by not paying them (they would take other opportunities), then why do businesses do what is so clearly against their interests? I prefer systems that rely on informed self interest, rather than so-called expert, objective boards charged with making the world right thru coercion. Yes, businessmen are sometimes stupid and do stupid things but I'd rather take my chances with that than with government tyranny by self-righteous morons.

Anonymous said...

How do you go about "taking care of all the US workers"? If it's by government intrusion, meddling, subjective judgment, cronyism, racism, preferences and coercion count me out. Again I prefer to take my chances with businessmen, who, presumably, are mostly just trying to do what will make their businesses profitable.

Anonymous said...

Stossel, like all Fox employees, is paid to tell the lies that the corporation desires them to tell. Fox has even defended and won the right to fire employees who will not publicly lie on behalf of the Fox corporate agenda. Fox considers it the corporation’s duty to lie to the public if it benefits their agenda. It begs the question: why would anyone listen to someone who considers it their duty to lie to the listener? Perhaps even more, why would anyone patronize any advertizing sponsor of any Fox program?

Dan O'Dea said...

John Stossel is a champion at making bad arguments to support an issue which he misunderstands. In short, I don't trust him to provide a rational view on anything.

Workers should be measured by how well they do the job, period. Age has nothing to do with it, it's personality, skill set, adaptability and so on.

Engineer said...

Yes, rationalization for age discrimination. I don't know what kind of "business" the commenter runs, but it is undoubtedly a commodity business in which cheap employees are all that matters. In my business, I hire those with the experience and expertise to satisfy the clients' most complex problems - which will definitely not be a 23 year old just out of college.

Anonymous said...

I (40+) worked with computer databases and applications. A cute young thing was highered. A year later they had to lay one of us off. They chose me even though she had deleted the three most important databases that our organization had. She did not know that she deleted the databases. She did not know how she deleted them. And she did not know how to recover them.

Early Films said...

Well let's see, the one girl pointed out how she had "grown up with computers and ipods." I guess this technology just appeared out of the ether and was not invented by "older" people like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates and their peers; building on the technology invented by even OLDER people?

In my case, I have a much higher learning curve than I did when I was younger. This is due to EXPERIENCE and recognizing that new technology only emulates traditional methods in a quicker and more efficient manner. Knowing the traditional methods gives me a more intutive understanding of what's really happening in that box. Merely knowing how the push the buttons only goes so far.

I wonder how many younger people think they are going to be the first on the moon?

Perhaps they should be thinking about how they are going to be coldly thrown out the door in their fifties in exchange for younger and cheaper labor! Maybe they should pass on that next i-pad, because they are desperately going to need that money in 30 years!

And what does Stossel expect 50-somethings who can't find work to do, collect welfare?! Oh no, that would be leeching off the system as his ilk would say.

The economy is a mess because for too many years profits and executive compensation have been artificially increased by lowering middle class salaries relative to the cost of living. A worldwide population of increasingly ineffective consumers means fewer sales and lower profits - which will of course be compensated for by even lower salaries! See the self-destructive pattern that many call the "free market?"

EFFECTIVE CONSUMERS ARE THE TRUE JOB CREATORS - AND NO COMPANY CAN EXIST WITH THE CEO ALONE! Everyone deserves a fair piece of the pie they helped to bake - unless you believe in slavery!

Anonymous said...

Prefacing this by stating that I know full and well that if I lose my job, I am over 50, I would be subject to every form of discrimination that everyone else is. The biggest disservice that employers can ever do for employee is not to tell them when they are deficient; that they used to be good but can't cut it now. That the employee has become lazy and feels entitled to stop working or producing because they have been with a workplace for 20 years. That instead of finding new ways of growing, they are stuck in a box and don’t feel the obligation because “I paid my dues.” That self growth, in any form, does not exist if they employer does not pay for it.

How do I know that; I am the one that interviews these angry individuals. I test all my applicants. In fact I tell all my applicants that I am going to test them when the interview is set up. I receive appalled and affronted statement. Why they have been in the industry for 20 years, how dare I test? When they completely fail all level of applicant testing, even though I am advised of their years of experience; when they begin to rip and trash former employers and coworkers, give me attitude; when I have someone cry because she lost her BFF; when I ask how they performed this task, how was that issue determined, how did was that problem determined and I receive no answer; when I ask what generation of computer software do they have and I get the following answers: I DON’T KNOW BUT MY COMPUTER DOES. I CAN'T FIND IT ON MY COMPUTER. WHATEVER THEY HAD IN MY LAST JOB. I know I have a problem. It may be a money issue but it is also that they employee has gone from best to worst and they just don’t know the truth. Seriously, how can you be at the same job for 20 years and the reason you are fired not be age discrimination the reason that you were fired. Because no one is telling you the truth. Think about it. If you are in sales and bringing in top business would you get fired? Would the employer care if you are 30 or 60? Nope. If you are secretary and can still type 70 WPM and handle the work instead of spending your time socializing and saying it’s not my job, would you be fired? Nope.

Fact, training programs are a thing of the past. That means that employers are WILLING and EAGER to hire someone who knows the job. Can they save money by hiring an inexperienced person, sure but the new person has to be trained and that cost time, energy and money. When I try to find an experience applicant with current skills all I get are stories of the glory days. They were the best but they can't seem to understand that they allowed their skills to become outdated. They can't understand that part of the process of being the best is remaining the best and that means getting your hands dirty and keeping on the cutting edge of your industry. Computers outdate themselves daily. People can do the same thing. Would you want to have someone perform surgery on you using the same techniques of 20 years ago? Maybe, but would you prefer to have sonar used to disperse kidney stone rather than cut into you. Anyone who says no to the sonar is telling tales.

I have a friend who is top of her line, and seriously the best of the best. She retired and decided to find another job. First she refused to take a cut in pay. That lasted two years before she realized that jobs at her salary did not exist anymore and no one cared about her years of experience. She decided to add licenses to her background that no one wanted. Any job that she managed to get, she was affronted that anyone questioned her work or her writing skills. She finally found a job that she could manage. When I asked how she did it she said “I FINALLY REALIZED THAT I USED TO BE THE BEST BUT NOW I AM AT THE BOTTOM OF THE HEAP. AT MY OLD JOB I WAS TOP. THAT WAS THEN THIS IS NOW. I AM NOT ALL THAT AND A BAG OF CHIPS ANYMORE.”

Dan O'Dea said...

John Stossel is a big idiot. He is a champion of cherry-picking "facts" which support his position and ignoring anything else. What a blowhard.

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